Wednesday, 17 June 2015

The False Dalai Lama Who Changes Buddhism Into Political Gain Through Lying, by Nicholas Pitts

Make no mistake about it, the Dalai Lama is first and foremost a politician.

Though admired as the ‘spiritual leader of the Tibetan people’, in reality he uses this position as a veil to conceal his true actions and intentions, exploiting his celebrity status to further his own personal and political ambitions.

There is a vast body of well documented evidence proving that away from the glare of the international media the Dalai Lama is a ruthless and corrupt politician who uses intimidation, humiliation and banishment to suppress those who do not abide by his authoritarian edicts.

Rather than being subjected to scrutiny and held to account for these iniquitous actions, the Dalai Lama enjoys a devious courtship with politicians, journalists and celebrities whose interests are served by their association with him.

His elaborate public relations machine, financed by the millions he shamefully earns from Buddha’s teachings, exploits these relationships to protect him from public scrutiny and perpetuate the myth that he is a humble Buddhist monk who champions the cause of religious freedom and promotes the protection of human rights.

But while the world fêtes the Dalai Lama as a great Buddhist leader, the truth is that through his lies and deception he is destroying the spiritual heart of the Buddhist religion, and transforming it into a vehicle for naked personal ambition and political gain.

In his pursuit of political dominance, he has imposed a global ban on the traditional Buddhist practice of Dorje Shugden.

He justifies his actions with the absurd and totally unsubstantiated claim that the Shugden practice threatens his life, harms the Tibetan people, and harms Tibetan independence.

The truth, of course is that it is his actions that harm the Tibetan cause. It is he who exploits public sympathy towards the Tibetan cause for his own political gain and personal aggrandisement.

This ‘humble Buddhist monk’, as he likes to call himself, makes vast sums of money out of Buddha’s teachings, sports Gucci loafers and Rolex watches, and stays in five-star hotels, while his own people, whom he suppresses so cruelly, live in poverty, hardship and fear.

Like any corrupt politician, he is not averse to using threats and intimidation.

In one lecture from a Buddhist teaching throne, he issued a threat that those who did not comply with his ban would receive a ‘knock on the door’ from his henchmen.

As a result, many Tibetans have been cowed into publicly renouncing the deity they worship.

Those who do not recant are mercilessly expelled from Tibetan society by their fellow countrymen, who have been whipped into a frenzy of anger by the Dalai Lama’s carefully crafted lies.

Using public humiliation, provocation, intimidation and threats, including dismissing them from their jobs, refusing them basic services and publicly spreading lies about them, they have driven Shugden practitioners and their families into spiritual and social ghettos with no communication with or support from mainstream Tibetan communities.

All this is well-documented.

In instigating and encouraging these actions, the Dalai Lama is pandering to the worst instincts of human nature rather than helping to elevate the human mind and human nature to higher levels, which is what we would expect from a pure spiritual leader.

This is not just a Tibetan problem.

Under the spell of the Dalai Lama’s cult status, even people who live in modern democratic societies have been mesmerised into suspending their critical judgement and taking part in what is effectively a medieval witch hunt.

Deceived by a constant stream of lies and disinformation from the Central Tibetan Administration and the Dalai Lama’s Office, they have unleashed a campaign of demonisation and exclusion that is causing suffering to thousands of innocent people who have done no harm, but who simply choose to follow a practice given to them by their own Spiritual Guides.

As a result, many thousands of peaceful and sincere Buddhist practitioners throughout the world face ridicule, intimidation and exclusion from mainstream Buddhism on a daily basis.

Though the Dalai Lama would have us believe that Shugden practitioners are a sectarian group, this split in the Buddhist community was brought about entirely by his own sectarian actions, and only he can solve the problem.

All Shugden practitioners can do is protest and hope the world wakes up to the great deception and injustice he is perpetrating.

For this reason the International Shugden Community (ISC) organises public protests to bring this tragic situation to the world's attention. But they are up against formidable opponents.

For example, The Guardian and The Observer recently published a vitriolic and completely ill-informed article criticising the ISC in the run up to one of the demonstrations in the UK.

Besides being an insult to the intelligence of its readers and a disgrace to the profession of journalism this article has caused grave offence to Shugden people worldwide and deliberately sought to destroy their reputation.

It is an appalling example of the slavish and uncritical deference many in the West show to the Dalai Lama.

Astonishingly, the author, Jamie Doward, accuses Shugden practitioners of being a fanatical sect, ‘which believes in an evil spirit that inflicts madness and death on its enemies’ and whose ‘systematic campaign against the Dalai Lama and deepening oppression threatens the very survival of Tibetan religion and cultural identity.’

It is hard to believe that people living in a free society would entertain such superstitious nonsense, let alone espouse it. It is as if they are under a spell.

The same article quotes a Geshe Tashi as saying, ‘The advice of his holiness about Shugden practice is based on his strong commitment to promote religious harmony and greater understanding between the world’s major religious traditions and the different Buddhist schools.’

Tashi is clearly lying and his statement is complete nonsense.

How does the Dalai Lama’s ban on the practice of Shugden cause greater harmony and understanding between the world’s major religions?

In truth this so-called ‘advice’ has caused a huge division within Buddhism and destroyed the harmony, good relationships and peace fellow Buddhists previously enjoyed.

Now non-Shugden people who support the Dalai Lama regard Shugden people as their enemies. All this is caused only by the Dalai Lama’s ‘advice’.

Tibetans themselves know very well that this Dalai Lama has destroyed pure Buddhism by transforming Buddhism for his own political aims.

Many Tibetan Buddhists, including Tashi, abandon pure Buddhism and follow this political Lama in using Buddhism for their own political gain. This situation is very sad.‏

The article also quotes Kate Saunders, the Communications Director for the International Campaign for Tibet as saying, ‘The protesters are from an extremist religious group that is aligned with the political agenda of the Chinese government in Tibet to undermine the Dalai Lama and enforce allegiance to the Chinese Communist party.’

This is a deliberate lie. The Shugden community has no connection at all with China or its government. This lie is used as a smokescreen to hide the Dalai Lama’s own abuse of human rights.

In truth it is her way of viewing the Dalai Lama that is the real extremist view.

She believes that the Dalai Lama is beyond fault when in reality he is an evil person who causes many thousands of people to suffer.

He cheats the world through pretending to be a holy being when his main aim is to control everybody.

He has banned the worship of Shugden only for the fulfilment of his own selfish wishes. But he even lies about this, and publicly pretends that there is no ban.

By changing Buddhism into political gain through lying, the Dalai Lama will destroy pure Buddhism.

This is why the ISC are demonstrating against him and calling upon him to ‘stop lying.’

Based in Hong Kong, Nicholas Pitts is the International Shugden Community Representative.

39 comments:

  1. Excellent article describing the dire deception of the Dalai Lama that goes unchecked by most of the world's media

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  2. He also enjoys a dubious relationship with 'Buddhist' academics like Robert Thurman who also lie and cheat on his behalf - a very sad situation. It's easier for most people to continue with the positive public persona of the Dalai Lama created by millions of dollar of publicity than to realise they have been deceived by a spiritual conman who is only interested in his own position and power. This is one of the biggest scams of the century!

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    1. Ha, Ha. Pagpa. What about improving your knowledge before you accuse others (who hold different views than you do) wrongly of "lying"? A different view is neither a lie nor cheating. Is it so hard to accept that others hold different views than you do? Is it so hard to accept that monks in their monasteries have the right to ban a practice at their very spiritual homes they consider to be harmful? Why can you not respect their rights? This decision was made based on majority vote and according to monastic procedures laid down by the Buddha – the seven procedures to settle conflicts. Shugden monks have their own monasteries, they have freedom to travel, to get access to health services, education etc. …

      Actual, it is YOU who is deceived. "a very sad situation. It's easier for most [NKT] people to continue with the [negative image] of the Dalai Lama created by millions [?] of dollar of publicity than to realise [YOU] have been deceived by a spiritual conman [Kelsang Gyatso, founder of the New Kadampa Tradition] who is only interested in his own position and power. This is one of the biggest scams of the century!"

      Therefore, read what academics say about your protests, Pagpa:

      "Jonathan Gold, a professor of religion and scholar of Buddhism, explained that the main conflict between the Shugden practitioners and the Dalai Lama is that Shugden practicioners protect the teachings of the Gelug by keeping out people who are not strict Gelug Orthodox practicioners, he said.

      "Shugden’s symbolism has traditionally been very offensive, even threatening to the Dalai Lama, Gold said.

      "More specifically, Gold noted that the Shugden reject the Dalai Lama’s choice to encompass multiple Buddhist practices under the umbrella of Tibetan Buddhism.

      "Gold also noted that the Dalai Lama does not have the authority to ban or to legitimize any practice.

      “The Dalai Lama is just a religious leader. He cannot control their ability to travel or to stop them from practicing their religion,” Gold said.

      "However, he said, Shugden practitioners are misinformed in their consistent statement that the Dalai Lama is preventing them from exercising their rights. Gold said that the Dalai Lama, though exiled from Tibet, has made its exiled population a more democratic society.

      "The Dalai Lama, Gold said, works around the world to promote liberal values, and restricting the Shugden practitioners in the way that they claim would directly go against his values.

      "Clarification: This article has been updated to clarify that the Dalai Lama does not have the power to ban any practices, except for those within his own monastery.

      http://dailyprincetonian.com/news/2014/10/group-to-protest-dalai-lama-talk-at-princeton-next-week/

      Other academics have pointed out the claims of the protesters as non-sense or absurd. Prof. Nathan Hills from London’s SOAS:

      "The final point he makes is that the Dalai Lama is often accused by the pro-Shugden side as suppressing freedom of religion.

      “This accusation makes no sense,” states Dr Hill. “The Dalai Lama is not head of any state; he has no military or police at his command; he has no political jurisdiction over which he can exercise suppression.”

      “Some members of the Gelug sect left the authority of the Dalai Lama in order to follow what they see as a purer form of religion. These people may not be very popular in other parts of the Gelug sect, but their human rights have not been violated nor their freedoms suppressed; even if some people did want to suppress or silence the pro-Shugen side, they simply have no means of doing so,” Dr Hill concludes.

      http://theforeigner.no/pages/news/distance-from-dalai-lama-protests-among-differing-opinions

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  3. Unfortunately most people think that the DL is a cross between a wise guru and a fluffy bunny and have no idea about the harm he has caused and continues to cause. And so many journalists are lazy and do not go to the trouble of checking out the situation and this makes them a disgrace to their profession.

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  4. Better a wise guru and fluffy bunny than a false geshe, like Kelsang Gyatso. Talk about a liar! He has you all fooled, so I guess he's really good at it.

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    1. If Geshe Kelsang has lied,please show clear evidence. Otherwise it is you who are the liar along with the already proven Dalai Liar.

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    2. Can YOU tell please where the Dalai Lama lied? You’ve never given any good reason for your accusation. In your 1996-98 and 2008-2011 campaign you called him a liar because he is of the opinion that Shugden is a spirit – an opinion also Trijang Rinpoche had(!) The Dalai Lama does just not agree that the spirit is a manifestation of Manjushri. This demonstrates that that you are intolerant and ill-informed, unable to accept another person’s opinion and you call him a liar because he has doesn’t share your view.

      Though I didn’t claim that Kelsang Gyatso is a liar, for sure, this is is a lie, isn’t it? "He (the Dalai Lama) spent his whole life only collecting the wealth of simple Tibetan People. What material help has he provided to the Tibetan people? And regarding the issue of Tibet, what has he done that is really helpful?"

      http://www.info-buddhism.com/geshe_kelsang_gyatso.html

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  5. Absolute nonsense from a discredited and harmful religious cult.

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  6. The Dalai Lama advises against the worship of shugden because it is linked to sectarian violence that the Dalai Lama opposes. The lama most responsible for promoting this sectarian 'protector' was Pabongkha Dechen Nyingpo who praise Shugden saying,
    ""Dorje Shugden is extremely important for holding Tsongkhapa's tradition without mixing and corrupting it with confusions due to the great violence and the speed of the force of his actions, which fall like lightning to punish violently all those beings who have wronged the Yellow Hat Tradition, whether they are high or low. Many from our own side, monks or lay people, high or low, are not content with Tsongkapa's tradition, which is like pure gold, and have mixed and corrupted it with the mistaken views and practices from other schools, which are tenet systems that are reputed to be incredibly profound and amazingly fast but are mistakes among mistakes, faulty, dangerous and misleading paths. In regard to this situation, this protector of the doctrine, this witness, manifests his own form or a variety of unbearable manifestations of terrifying and frightening wrathful and fierce appearances. Due to that, a variety of events, some of them having happened or happening, some of which have been heard or seen, seem to have taken place: some people become unhinged and mad, some have a heart attack and suddenly die."

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  7. The ISC does not equal the NKT, just as the Western Shugden Society was not the NKT. They made that very clear when Kelsang Gyatso, founder and leader of the New Kadampa Tradition wrote to NKT centres in 2008:

    Dear Resident Teachers and Administrative Directors of NKT Dharma Centers,

    You have received a copy of the letter sent to Sera Lachi, Sera Je and Sera Mey by The Western Shugden Society. From this you can understand that it is very possible that The Western Shugden Society will organise demonstrations against the Dalai Lama. Concerning this issue, we should know five things:

    1. The demonstrations will be organised by The Western Shugden Society, not by the NKT.

    2. The Western Shugden Society is the unification of all the Western Shugden practitioners, and NKT is a part of this main body.

    3. When the main body, The Western Shugden Society, organises demonstrations, the NKT needs to voluntarily contribute and help.

    4. There is no basis to break our constitution or internal rules because this is not organised by the NKT.

    5. The Western Shugden Society organising the demonstrations is not for the purpose of the six monks only, it is the method to prevent the destruction of the pure lineage of Je Tsongkhapa, and to stop the extremely forceful campaign that the Dalai Lama is doing now to eradicate completely the practice of Dorje Shugden in India and other countries through unlawful actions.

    We should recognise that the NKT is not involved politically, simply supporting The Western Shugden Society with these demonstrations. Peaceful demonstrations are respected by democratic governments, it is the position of the people, we should take this opportunity, there is no other method to stop the Dalai Lama´s campaign against Dorje Shugden practitioners.

    There are three wheels of Dharma activities: 1) the wheel of studying Dharma, 2) the wheel of meditating on Dharma, and 3) the wheel of working for the Dharma. These demonstration actions are included within the wheel of working for the Dharma. Please keep this pure motivation.

    With love and prayers,

    Geshe Kelsang Gyatso

    Of course, Kelsang gyatso had already explained that the demonstrations were being organised personally by him as he wrote earlier in 2008:

    "My Dear Students,

    I need help from you to solve the Dorje Shugden problem created by the Dalai Lama. Right now the Dalai Lama is removing the Tibetan Shugden worshipers from the Buddhist community saying that Shugden worshipers are not Buddhist because they worship an evil spirit - Shugden. At the same time he is preparing to remove western Shugden worshipers from the Buddhist community with the same reasons. His aim is to destroy the pure lineage of Je Tsongkhapa´s doctrine. To stop this evil action, as the representative of the Western Shugden Society, I personally will organise demonstrations against the Dalai Lama directly. I requested Kelsang Pema and Kelsang Thubchen to do this job for me and they have accepted.

    Please help Pema and Thubchen with whatever they need.

    With much love and prayers

    Geshe Kelsang Gyatso"

    So, we can see clearly that the NKT are in no way responsible for these demonstrations, but their founder and leader, and senior members like Kelsang Rabten (Nick Pitts) and Kelsang Pagpa are. Hope the cult double-speak doesn't confuse anybody.

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  8. Why pinpointing and blaming others. If you really belief Dalai lama is a liar...dont belive in him...dont make his beleiver hate you...you practice what you beleif and let others do the same...if you are so concern about his lies affecting you...why not make it right..this is not the way...am not a tibetan ...but a buddhist...we dont tell or beleif lamas are bad...we are born to belief and respect elders and gurus...such articles makes me sad and esp gor tibetan peoples living in tibet..who are dying to even treasure dalai lama's pictures ...which are not allowed...imagine how much sadness this kind of things will effect them...no one is forcing anyone to like and belief anyone...everything is in our control...just learn to use it wisely not publishing such dreadful things...if you really care about your fellow tibetans(cos am sure such articles are written by some tibetan)...i dont like politicians ..so i make myself not available during voting time...i dont vote...likewise...no one is forcing you..so atleast dont make millions of dalai lama's followers to hate and become miserable...he is a god to them...one one likes their god to be criticise...every religion has their own beleif..no need to degrade others just because you dont beleif...its not right...esp you dont have any right to degrade their beliefs...so my sincere request...dont publish such things...weather its right or not...i dont care..i hate politicians...you are one...please such articles make people insecure of peace and freedom..no buddhist ever wants such things...we dont force others to beleif in what we beleive...��������

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  9. Dear Rabten / Nicholas. It is really sad to see how you invent facts, distort events and spin in public a conspiracy theory. I have to acknowledge that you are successful in misleading media and get your message through but you cannot turn facts upside down in the long run because your spins have either no basis in reality or present only factions of complex issues.

    I save my time with a line by line correction of your spins – if you wish, I would take time to do that but I fear I just waste my time. It might be worth to note that even the respected London based Buddhist Society rejects your campaign as wrong. misleading and not following Buddhist principles: http://www.jamyang.co.uk/index.php/component/content/article/10-news/112-statement

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  10. Dear Tenzin,

    I would like to put all the to-ing and fro-ing of accusations to one side, and take a slightly wider view of this argument. It saddens me greatly that, in a world that is clearly degenerating so swiftly, those who are dedicated to world peace are arguing so much.

    I will say up front that I am a Dorje Shugden practitioner. I have nothing against anybody who wishes to practice otherwise. I respect all the lineages of Buddha and wish for them all to flourish equally.

    I would love for the following to be clarified Tenzin, and I know you are a vocal advocate of the Dalai Lama's side of this argument. So perhaps you can indulge me?

    It seems to me that the source of this schism in the sangha (and that's what it is, a schism, one of the actions that are documented in Buddha's teachings as being karmically horrendous), is the belief that Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit.

    If Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit, then the Dalai Lama is correct and the ISC are wrong. If he is an enlightened being, then the Dalai Lama is wrong and the ISC is correct. In either case, whoever is wrong has caused a schism in the sangha. This is awful.

    The lineage gurus of both HH The Dalai Lama and Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso are the same - Trijang Rinpoche and Je Pabonka Rinpoche. Both were Dorje Shugden practitioners. I believe this is documented fact and not open to debate. If I am wrong here, please point out why.

    If the Dalai Lama is correct and Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit, then these lineage gurus were wrong and hence not realised masters. The implication here is that neither side belongs to a pure lineage any more, and the lineage is already dead.

    It the Dalai Lama is wrong and Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being, then the lineage as practiced by anybody following the teachings of Je Tsongkhapa purely remains intact, regardless of whether they rely on Dorje Shugden or not.

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    1. "If the Dalai Lama is correct and Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit, then these lineage gurus were wrong and hence not realised masters."

      This is not true as both Pabongkha and Trijang described how dogyal attacks and kills people of different religious persuasions, and both said dogyal was a worldly protector. ie. both Pabongkha and Trijang said dogyal was a harmful spirit.
      The Dalai Lama looked at the teachings on this protector, given by Pabongkha and Trijang and whilst he agreed with it's content (dogyal attacks and harms people) he did not agree that this kind of thing should be praised and worshipped.
      It is the NKT that disagree with both Pabongkha and Trijang in saying that dogyal doesn't harm. The NKT say dogyal is an enlightened being ~ this is something Pabongkha, Trijang and the Dalai Lama haven't said.

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    2. PART !:
      Hi Anonymous. First let me clarify that I am not "a vocal advocate of the Dalai Lama's side". I am an advocate of facts and as my father said, I have "justice spleen". Once having naively believed in the toxic misinformation mix which the NKT (and here Kelsang Rabten / Nicholas Pitts) spread, I protested myself against the Dalai Lama from 1996-98.

      However, based on my own experiences with Kelsang Gyatso, my own research and critical investigation into these issues, I realised how mistaken the world of NKT presents the Shugden issue and how much they deceive themselves and the world about it; and, that the Dalai Lama has indeed some good reasons to restrict that practice. (Which doesn’t mean that I agree with all what happens related to this issue.)

      As I stressed different times, my engagement is not FOR the Dalai Lama, it is to correct the massive misrepresentations of the NKT because these misguide others and lead them into confusion, hate and sectarianism.

      Now with respect to the schism. Shugden practice itself has historically proved to be schismatic and sectarian because it is strongly bound to Gelug exclusivism, group identity and the belief that the Gelug school is superior to other schools – or as Pabongkha said, only the Gelugs have the right view and all the adepts of other Buddhist schools and religions will go to hell.

      You bring into the discussion the concept of "Sangha schism" that you have picked up in NKT. However, what it actually means you seem not to understand. (Please see my website www-info-buddhism.com to rectify the phrase "Sangha schism". The sources I used are the Buddha and Geshe Rabten.)

      It is in NO WAY a Sangha Schism to understand Shugden as a harmful spirit. What ever Shugden’s nature is … how one regards Shugden is an opinion or a view, it is not a Sangha schism.

      Yes, "If Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit, then the Dalai Lama is correct and the ISC are wrong." Agreed. "If he is an enlightened being, then the Dalai Lama is wrong and the ISC is correct." Agreed. "In either case, whoever is wrong has caused a schism in the sangha." Wrong.

      Your lack of logic "is awful" because according to you, it follows, a wrong view about something is a Sangha schism. It follows all wrong views are a Sangha schism;. It follows wrong views and Sangha schism are identically. It follows, to actively deny the existence of rebirth or Karma (both are explained to be wrong views) are a Sangha schism.

      The Dalai Lama had different lineage gurus. He also holds different lineages. His two main tutors from the Gelug school were Ling Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche. Ling Rinpoche was the senior tutor of HHDL and he was not an advocate of Shugden. Ling Rinpoche was also higher in rank than Trijang Rinpoche, the junior tutor of the Dalai Lama. Ling Rinpoche was no teacher of Kelsang Gyatso – at least Kelsang Gyatso never mentioned him in any way. Only Ling Rinpoche was also Ganden Tripa. Trijang Rinpoche was no Ganden Tripa (head of the Gelug school).

      If the Dalai Lama is correct and Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit, then Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongkha Rinpoche erred (to a certain degree, in fact its even more complex). Ling Rinpoche didn’t err if the Dalai Lama is correct. He was never fond of Shugden and found himself that Pabongkha (who was also a guru of Ling Rinpoche) has made a mistake with Shugden.

      BTW, Triang Rinpoche’s view is that Shugden is a Samaya (vow) breaking spirit, who punishes its followers with death and sickness if they practice non-gelug teachings but he claimed also that this harming spirit is at the same time a manifestation of Manjushri. So the Dalai Lama’s view is by far more in line with Trijang Rp than the NKT follower’s view who claim he were enlightened. (The problem is, that NKT followers only know the white washed version of Shugden which Kelsang Gyatso presents.)

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    3. PART II:
      Hi Anonymous,
      your "logic" is again wrong. Because someone erred, it doesn’t follow he has no realisations. The Arhats at the time of the Buddha erred many times but they were highly realised. Atisha’s most important Guru, Serlingpa, erred with respect to the ultimate (he hold Chittamatra, Athisha hold Prasangika view). Atisha never accepted the wrong view on the ultimate by Serlingpa but still Atisha regarded Serlingpa he was his most important teacher; and of course Serlingpa had realisations. Also Atisha himself made faults and acknowledged and confessed them! There are many lineage masters who erred or whose views were rejected by their disciples. The problem is, that the NKT cosmos doesn’t tell those stories and non-NKT Buddhist literature is regarded as poison for NKT’s believed "purity".

      Only a Buddha is free of faults according to Buddhism. However, there is no proof that Trijang Rinpoche or Pabongkha Rinpoche were Buddhas, hence they can have erred, yet still being highly realised.

      The Dalai Lama therefore correctly states: “I am of the opinion that Phabongkha and Trijang Rinpoche’s promotion of the worship of Dholgyal was a mistake. But their worship represents merely a fraction of what they did in their lives. Their contributions in the areas of Stages of the Path, Mind Training and Tantra teachings were considerable. Their contribution in these areas was unquestionable and in no way invalidated by involvement with Dholgyal … My approach to this issue (i.e. differing on one point, whilst retaining respect for the person in question) is completely in line with how such great beings from the past have acted.”

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  11. (continued from above)

    So was Je Pabongka wrong, and how do you justify to yourself that the Gelug lineage remains intact?

    Things I'd like to see clarified:

    1) Please provide irrefutable evidence of Je Pabongka's error. Without this, all that follows can be twisted either way. I have seen a translated letter of Je Pabongka's online that apparently incites violence towards those who oppose the Gelug tradition, but I would like to know who translated it - a realised Buddhist master or a Western scholar? I could see very clearly that there was much scope for error in the translation, and with a slight shift in translation, the text would read very much in a way that Shugden practitioners would advocate - i.e. be ruthless with your DELUSIONS, not violent towards people. This is the way that Shugden practitioners make requests - to request that Dorje Shugen pacify all obstacles to pure Dharma practice. I have never seen any Shugden practice that requests Dorje Shugden to harm anybody. We ask for help in pacifying our obstacles and arranging conditions favourable to our main aim, which is to HELP ALL LIVING BEINGS. In fact, that is the way I read the letter, even with the translation as it was. I think it's crucial that the translation skills of western scholars is taken with a pinch of salt, because unless they are realised masters themselves, they translate the words, and not the meaning. This is an essential point. So can you provide a letter or something similar translated by a realised master that conveys the meaning correctly of Je Pabongka's intention? I do not think any translations by unrealised scholars, no matter how intelligent or learned they are, suffice for the reasons I have just given.

    2) If you can provide evidence of the above, can you then justify how, through the proof you've just provided, you can continue to hold the Gelug lineage as practiced by the Dalai Lama and his followers as unbroken? How can the lineage blessings remain intact under such circumstances? If you negate the validity of your own lineage, how can you claim to be practicing pure Dharma?

    I believe this is a crucial paradox that the Dalai Lama needs to explain. I do not wish to divert into any other issues that are floating around. This one issue is the one that puzzles me the most.

    With love and prayers.

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    1. zhwa gser gyi bstan pa la log par spyod pa'i 'gro ba mchog dman kun la drag po'i che pa thog ltar 'beb pa la 'phrin las kyi shugs shin tu myur zhing/ drag shul shin tu che bas na/ rang phyogs kyi ser skya mchog dman mang po zhig kyang rje'i ring lugs gser sbyangs btso ma lta bu 'di nyid kyis go ma chod par gzhan phyogs pa'i lta grub 'khrul pa las kyang nyid 'khrul mu 'byam du song ba'i lam log lam gol gyi grub mtha' myur myur mo dang/ zab zab mor grags pa mang po zhig bse bslad byas pa la brten nas bstan bsrung gnyan po 'dis rang gzugs dngos su bstan pa dang/ khrog gtum 'jigs shing rngams pa'i rnam 'gyur mi bzad pa'i cho 'phrul sna tshogs pas kha cig myo zhing 'bog pa dang/ la la khong khrag 'dren cing glo bur du tshe'i 'du byed pa/ 'ga' zhig mi 'dod pa'i ngan ltas ci rigs pas dpal 'byor 'du longs rigs rgyud dang bcas pa ltag chu chad pa'i rdzing bu ltar rim bzhin rjes shul med par btang ba dang/ skye ba'i phreng ba gzhan mar 'gar yang ci byas pa la lam du rgyu dka' ba sogs mngon sum du byung ba dang 'byung 'gyur mang po mthong thos kyi yul du 'gyur pa ltar lags pas blo bzang rgyal ba'i bstan pa grub mtha' chal chol gzhan gyis bse bslad med par 'dzin pa shin tu gal che zhing

      "Dorje Shugden is extremely important for holding Tsongkhapa's tradition without mixing and corrupting it with confusions due to the great violence and the speed of the force of his actions, which fall like lightning to punish violently all those beings who have wronged the Yellow Hat Tradition, whether they are high or low. Many from our own side, monks or lay people, high or low, are not content with Tsongkapa's tradition, which is like pure gold, and have mixed and corrupted it with the mistaken views and practices from other schools, which are tenet systems that are reputed to be incredibly profound and amazingly fast but are mistakes among mistakes, faulty, dangerous and misleading paths. In regard to this situation, this protector of the doctrine, this witness, manifests his own form or a variety of unbearable manifestations of terrifying and frightening wrathful and fierce appearances. Due to that, a variety of events, some of them having happened or happening, some of which have been heard or seen, seem to have taken place: some people become unhinged and mad, some have a heart attack and suddenly die, some see through a variety of inauspicious signs their wealth, accumulated possessions and descendants disappear without leaving any trace, like a pond whose feeding river has ceased, whereas some find it difficult to achieve anything in successive lifetimes."
      Phabongkha Dechen Nyingpo's sung 'bum (collected works) vol 7. p526-527
      Translate it yourself.

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    2. Translate it yourself, if you like. Or you could read Trijang Rinpoche's teachings restating the views of his root lama:
      "Whether they were lords of Tibet, great lamas who held the political power of the throne, lamas and tulkus, great or small, with illustrious lines of incarnation, holy beings rich in scriptural and realized qualities, high lords of vast lands and works, those haughty with pride of family lineage, dominion and wealth, any who hypocritically claimed to be followers of Protector Manjusri Tsongkhapa’s Teachings while remaining unsatisfied with Je Lama’s precious Teachings of Sutra and Tantra which, in terms of view, meditation, and action, need not crave more from any other tradition, and, instead, mixed, polluted, or confused them with other modes of view and practice, whether lay or ordained, regardless of status, there have been many who have met with unpleasant wrathful punishments, such as being punished by authorities, litigation and legal disputes, untimely death, and so forth. Such swift, decisive signs appear to direct perception. Here praise is offered to that manifestation as a great wrathful protector who raises the Yellow Hat Teachings to the heights of the heavens."
      That was translated Tsem Tulku's group into English, Chinese and Indonesian. You can also download the original Tibetan text as well as all the other versions here:
      http://www.dorjeshugden.com/downloads/texts/download-music-delighting-the-ocean-of-protectors/

      In that text Trijang lists loads of people he praised dogyal for attacking and killing, from rival oracles, to bonpo lamas and non-sectarian Gelugpas. Read it if you've got the stomach for it. It really is disgusting and about as far from the authentic Dharma as you can get.

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    3. I will read, thanks. But as I asked before, who translated it? This is crucial.

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    4. As i said, "That was translated *by* Tsem Tulku's group into English, Chinese and Indonesian."

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    5. From Tsem Rinpoche's own website (full caps added by me for emphasis)-

      "So, the liturgies that you see in Dorje Shugden’s practice are the same as in most Dharma Protectors’ practice, which is you see a lot of graphic, violent types of requests, which is tantric symbology. THERE IS NOTHING IN THE DHARMA PROTECTOR's PRACTICE THAT WILL HARM ANOTHER BEING. AGAIN IT IS IMPOSSIBLE THAT DHARMA PROTECTORS OF AN ENLIGHTENED NATURE COULD HARM ANOTHER SENTIENT BEING BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO KARMA TO HARM, THEY HAVE NO INCLINIATION TO HARM... hence, they are enlightened. Therefore the graphic nature of some of the prayers you see in the Dharma Protector practices, such as in Dorje Shugden, will seem very violent but all the violence is directed symbolically to our inner ego and self-centeredness."

      Also -

      "According to H.H. Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang, he says that there are two types of Protectors: one is enlightened and one is not enlightened or worldly. Worldly Protectors are beings that are not enlightened but they have been bound by powerful oaths or they have sworn allegiance to benefit others. And sometimes they can be temperamental or difficult and they can even, at times, create obstructions when they are not happy. So, only in certain circumstances would we rely on a worldly Protector.

      Extra-worldly Protectors (Protectors that are enlightened) are beings who are manifestations of higher Bodhisattvas or Protectors who themselves have achieved enlightenment aeons ago. Within the enlightened class of Protectors, you have two categories again. One is obviously showing their enlightened form, and the second sub-category is that they are in the form of a worldly Protector but their mind is enlightened. Dorje Shugden and Setrap fall into this category of Protectors who appear as worldly Protectors but ARE ACTUALLY FULLY ENLIGHTENED… in the case of Setrap, being an emanation of Amitabha; in the case of Dorje Shugden, being an EMANATION OF MANJUSHRI."

      This sounds practically identical to the explanation I have had, and pretty much sums up why I have learned that you cannot rely on translations of things for ultimate understanding, but must instead rely upon the Spiritual Guide, who has set a perfect example throughout his life and has taught me nothing but how to increase my wisdom and compassion. This way I get the intended meaning rather than a translation that may or may not be accurate.

      I am still baffled by how, even if you believe all these great masters including Je Pabongka, Zong Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche, Tsem Rinpoche and many more were wrong, and they have all mistaken an evil spirit for a Buddha, you can then draw the conclusion that the Dalai Lama is somehow right, given who his teachers were. It makes no sense at all, and I don't understand how so many people have managed to ignore this fact. Didn't Buddha say to investigate everything for yourself and challenge anything that doesn't seem right? This doesn't stand up to even the slightest application of logic.

      I am genuinely puzzled and would love for somebody who follows the Dalai Lama to explain this to me.

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    6. The problem is that Tsem is not truthful and that the Shugden adherents have started to whitewash Shugden history. That's why it is crucial to 1) read the origin works or sober translations of Trijang Rinpoche’ and Pabongkha's writings + the Yellow Book by Dzemey Rinpoche 2) to use neutral academic sources and 3) not taking face value what Tsem, Kelsang Gyatso, Shugden proponents state on their websites and blogs without critical investigation.

      As another commenter has already pointed out, it is Tsem’s own group that offered a translation of "Music Delightening an Ocean of Protectors" by Trijang Rinpoche. Prof. Georges Dreyfus and Prof. Michael von Brück have commented on that text in their research already. Tsem’s translation is also a bit whitewashed with respect to the translation of some specific Tibetan terms into English but the all in all the text states what Trijang Rinpoche had to say. Here a summary how the pro Shugden group translates Trijang Rinpoche’s own text:

      In Trijang Rinpoche’s text about Shugden, Music Delightning an Ocean of Protectors, Trijang Rinpoche explains Shugden’s nature and way it arose. He says that Shugden / Dogyal is a mundane (ie. worldly) protector (p. 11), a damsi (vow breaking) spirit (p. 107) and a gyalpo spirit called Dolgyal (p. 109) that harms and kills sentient beings (p. 111–122 and more). About the violence Shugden brings to other sentient beings Trijang Rinpoche states (p. 121–122):

      "Furthermore, whether they were lords of Tibet, great lamas who held the political power of the throne, lamas and tulkus, great or small, with illustrious lines of incarnation, holy beings rich in scriptural and realized qualities, high lords of vast lands and works, those haughty with pride of family lineage, dominion and wealth, any who hypocritically claimed to be followers of Protector Manjusri Tsongkhapa’s Teachings while remaining unsatisfied with Je Lama’s precious Teachings of Sutra and Tantra which, in terms of view, meditation, and action, need not crave more from any other tradition, and, instead, mixed, polluted, or confused them with other modes of view and practice, whether lay or ordained, regardless of status, there have been many who have met with unpleasant wrathful punishments, such as being punished by authorities, litigation and legal disputes, untimely death, and so forth. Such swift, decisive signs appear to direct perception. Here praise is offered to that manifestation as a great wrathful protector who raises the Yellow Hat Teachings to the heights of the heavens."

      This mundane harmful spirit is, according to Trijang Rinpoche, an emanation of Manjushri who emanated for the special purpose (p. 9) of protecting the purity of Tsongkhapa’s tradition and stopping Gelugpa’s taking teachings from other traditions.

      It is good that you are wondering about all of this. How do the claims Tsem made about Shugden fit his own group’s translation of Trijang Rinpoche’s view on Shugden? Please read what Trijang Rinpoche said himself, instead of believing blindly what Kelsang Gytaso or Tsem claim Trijang Rinpoche had said. Its also worth to read the Yellow Book, that explains Shugden’s nature based on the oral teachings of Trijang Rinpoche.

      http://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/?s=Yellow+Book

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    7. Hey Anonymous, not sure where to post but I hope you can see my answer to your points here. There really is a lot that can be said about the nature of enlightened and worldly protectors but the space here will not allow too much.
      The dogyal liturgies may well have generalized and pretty standard "graphic, violent types of requests", but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about the accounts and praises passed on by Pabongkha, and Trijang Rinpoche that are not general but very specific examples of particular real (not metaphorical) people who were killed by dogyal. There are a number of types of people Trijang mentions (rival Bonpo lamas, another oracle, a chinese official, etc.) but by far the most mentioned are Gelug lamas that took teachings from other traditions. So, these aren't symbolic attacks on the ego but specific examples of particular people being attacked and killed for taking teachings from other traditions.

      So, why would Dvagpo Rinpoche, Pabongkhapa, Trijang Rinpoche and Trijang's heart-son Zemey Tulku all teach that dogyal kills Gelug lamas for taking non-Gelug teachings?

      When asked about the Yellow Book (a collection of accounts about dogyal killing people Trijang Rinpoche shared with Zemey Tulku) Kelsang gyatso said, "maybe this was his view and he was trying to prevent Gelugpa Lamas from engaging in Nyingma practices."

      This is actually the inescapable conclusion and this act of killing Gelugpas that take non-Gelug teachings seems to be a sufficiently major aspect of dogyal's activity that it gets mentioned explicitly again and again often using very specific historical and recent examples. (I heard some dogyal followers privately claimed Lama Zopa's stroke was caused by dogyal due to his abandoning the dogyal practice, for example.)

      "Those who mix or pollute the Ganden teachings,
      Whether great beings, ordinary beings, or powerful lords,
      You grind into particles of dust, O Deity,
      Protector of the Yellow Hat Teachings, praise to you!"
      Dvagpo Rinpoche.

      So, how are we to reconcile the view that dogyal is an enlightened emanation with the view that it harms and kills people? Trijang gives a clue when he talks about dogyal being a worldly protector emanated from an enlightened being. He says that enlightened beings can emanate worldly spirits if for a specific purpose:
      "If someone were to think that it would be impossible for those great beings who had already attained enlightenment to transform into the aspect of a worldly spirit, although it is certainly true that it would be impossible for them to take birth in that form through the force of karma and delusion, it is possible for them to emanate in that form through the power of compassion and prayer for a special purpose, and such emanations definitely do exist."

      I suggest, this 'special purpose' is precisely to punish and kill Gelug lamas who, in Trijang's words, pollute "their bowls with dirty water" or take teachings from other 'inferior' traditions; traditions Pabongkha describes as "mistakes among mistakes, faulty, dangerous and misleading paths."

      It is because they saw these other traditions as so bad (leading to hell, etc.) that they saw the act of killing people that took teachings from them instead of remaining content with the Gelug lineage, as the compassionate act of an enlightened being. In killing Retreng Rinpoche or the 13th Dalai Lama, dogyal was preventing more Gelug lamas from taking the dire step of taking teachings from other faulty, misleading traditions.

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    8. The lamas you list haven't "mistaken an evil spirit for a Buddha" in quite the stark way you present it. They have said an evil spirit, that has the conventional appearance of an evil spirit and that they know is an evil spirit, is actually an enlightened emanation (just as a maggot ridden dog for example, can also be an enlightened emanation.)

      Kelsang gyatso explains that "Regarding Dorje Shugden, there are two different ways of perceiving him. One is according to the ordinary appearance of Tibetan people, and the other is according to the appearance of the qualified practitioner. These two appearances came originally from the 5th Dalai Lama. First Dorje Shugden appeared to him as a harmful spirit which he tried to destroy, (albeit unsuccessfully), and because of this many people came to view Dorje Shugden as a harmful spirit. In this way the ordinary appearance of Dorje Shugden developed."
      It's important to understand that 'ordinary appearance' doesn't just mean its clothes or face, but also its way of acting, its way of being.

      In any case, there were many lamas who also saw dogyal just as a harmful spirit. It was generally perceived as such in the Sakya school until Ngor Ngawang Yonten Gyatso pretty much wiped its practice out amongst that tradition.

      Also, the Dalai Lama had many teachers, including Ling Rinpoche who was a student of the 13th Dalai Lama, who actively opposed dogyal. The current Dalai Lama was recognised by Retreng Rinpoche who was also not a fan of dogyal and Trijang recounts how he was killed by dogyal. So, there were lines of transmission that didn't necessarily pass through Pabongkha and Trijang, but, there was a lot more to both lamas than just dogyal.

      I'd like to make one last point. In the 1970s the Dalai Lama wanted to follow the example of his immediate predecessor and other Dalai Lamas and take Nyingma teachings. At that time his junior tutor wrote a text that listed a number of high Gelug lamas that were killed by dogyal for doing just that. Trijang's heart-son also writes a book of stories his teacher taught him about how dogyal kills high lamas and government officials who take Nyingma teachings. I'd like to ask, do you think this is a coincidence or do you think these texts, whilst perfectly in line with the tradition set forth by Pabongkha, were intended as a means of stopping the Dalai Lama exercising his religious freedom? It seems to me, just as kelsang's view of the Yellow Book was inescapable, this is the unavoidable conclusion you must reach. That is exactly why the Dalai Lama has taken the decision he has. Generally, lamas should treat their students with compassion, not threaten them with death.

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  12. Of course the theology is interesting. But this article is about the religious freedom issue.

    David Lindsay, Editor of The Lanchester Review.

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    1. The theological issue came into play because an NKT follower asked for it. They need this information because they are so utterly misinformed and based on this misinformation they run the Anti-Dalai Lama campaign. So it is very good for them and peace that they ask and get sober information.

      With respect to "religious freedom". This term and "human rights" are just abused by the protesters to slander the Dalai Lama who is THE ENEMY of the group and forms their identity and feelings of belonging and togetherness. There is no human rights and no religious freedom issue as the academics I quoted clearly said. The problem is that Western journalists fall prey to this propaganda and lack expertise or don’t seek expertise. The group has flooded Human Rights Group to get their support. Since 1996 when they started they could not win ANY Human Rights Group to support their cause. These guys practice shadow boxing against the virtual reality of an image of an enemy that their leadership formed over the last 25 years and they believe to be "the truth".

      But Western media lack time to really dick into this and give the extreme group a platform. An exception was Foreign Policy, they really took time, and investigated the case and asked a religious expert of contemporary Tibetan politics, Robert Barnett. Note what they say, their claims are ABSURD:

      http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/03/13/buddhists_hate_dalai_lama_china/

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    2. I misspelled a term in my recent comment. Here my corrected comment:

      The theological issue came into play because an NKT follower asked for it. They need this information because they are so utterly misinformed and based on this misinformation they run the Anti-Dalai Lama campaign. So it is very good for them and peace that they ask and get sober information.

      With respect to "religious freedom". This term and "human rights" are just abused by the protesters to slander the Dalai Lama who is THE ENEMY of the group and forms their identity and feelings of belonging and togetherness. There is no human rights and no religious freedom issue as the academics I quoted clearly said. The problem is that Western journalists fall prey to this propaganda and lack expertise or don’t seek expertise. The group has flooded Human Rights Group to get their support. Since 1996 when they started they could not win ANY Human Rights Group to support their cause. These guys practice shadow boxing against the virtual reality of an image of an enemy that their leadership formed over the last 25 years and they believe to be "the truth".

      But Western media lack time to really dig into this and give an extreme religious group a platform. An exception was Foreign Policy, they really took time, and investigated the case and asked a religious expert of contemporary Tibetan politics, Robert Barnett. Note what they say, the protesters claims are ABSURD:

      http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/03/13/buddhists_hate_dalai_lama_china/

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    3. David, my point that the Dalai Lama's position actually promotes religious freedom and tolerance against an intolerant restrictive practice promoted by the NKT is probably most important, but I guess you were more after a response to the allegations made by NKT monk Kelsang Rabten or "Nicholas Pitts."
      I spent a long time in India living in Tibetan communities in Himachal Pradesh and also spent some time in Delhi and Bengal. I personally did not witness the kind of things the NKT reports. I am also aware that a number of their claims are totally unfounded and have been shown to be false elsewhere. For example, here: http://www.noneedfortemples.org/?p=265

      When I look at there claims online I see things like monk Losang Tenpa (Darrick Okkelberg) being photographed with signs asking that dogyal worshippers do not enter non-dogyal monasteries. This isn't really that contentious in India. Perhaps more contentious is Losang Tenpa's criminal record for aggravated battery and other offenses. He is often photographed with Kelsang Gyatso or senior NKT members behind their ISC campaign like Matthew Rochford.
      The NKT/ISC spokesman in the US is Len Foley. Len's former business associate is convicted fraudster Kevin Trudeau.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMyiquxBiRk
      http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/18/kevin-trudeau-jailed-10-years-swindling
      Len's new business associate is David Wolfe, also considered by some not to be totally kosher:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQgrOJu2EVc
      Dave and Len are so questionable people even make spoof videos about them:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVJTBc27uQk
      Given the company he keeps, I’m not sure I trust Foley.

      Behind the UK arm of the NKT protests is disgraced former monk Neil Elliot, the previous NKT deputy spiritual director who was allegedly forced to disrobe due to having sexual relations with his female students.

      All in all, I don't really trust either the ISC/NKT (they are not even honest about who they are) or their message.
      continued...

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    4. ...
      One significant point that is generally not understood by outsiders is that the protests are run by the NKT and most of those that criticise the protests, myself included, are ex-members of the NKT. This online debate, rumbling on since the '90s has largely been conducted by people with faith in Kelsang Gyatso and his group, or people who have left his group after seeing the way the group behaves.
      “Cult” is an emotive term but the NKT is certainly what specialists might call "a high demand group." NKT members are encouraged to give as much of their time and money to the group as they are able. This is something I have seen myself.
      The nature of the NKT gives some idea why they are engaged in their smear campaign against the Dalai Lama. All "high demand groups" like the NKT like to see themselves as uniquely blessed or fortunate. The NKT say they have the 'pure' truth and others do not. This view of superiority (Neil Elliot once said only the NKT have a valid lineage of the highest teaching, Mahamudra) is helped when they also have a special mission, in this case to save the 'pure' Dharma from the evil Dalai Lama. This gives the NKT the third important element to ensure inner cohesion, an enemy. From Jim Jones to David Koresh, groups like the NKT need to isolate themselves from other groups that might question their claims. To this end the NKT sent out a strict instruction that its members were not to socialise with or have any contact with students of Tibetan Buddhist teachers:

      "Dear Administrative Directors,
      Because of the potential for great spiritual confusion both now and in the future, we advise and request that NKT Centres, teachers, managers and residents do not get involved with the activities of any Tibetan Buddhist groups, teachers or their students. If you receive any invitations or requests from a Tibetan Buddhist group, teacher or student, please politely decline them, and forward them to the Education Council Representatives for our information. These approaches can be for support in some form (for example with donations, fundraising events, visa applications, hosting, transport, publicity, social events); or offers to give teachings, empowerments or informal talks, or to perform pujas, ceremonies, ritual demonstrations and so on. The main reason for this request is to help NKT practitioners to avoid mixing spiritual traditions, while of course maintaining respect for other traditions. It will also avoid being drawn into the many difficult political problems associated with Tibetan Buddhism, caused by mixing Dharma and politics.
      Please inform the teachers, managers and residents at your Centre of this advice and request.
      Thank you for your co-operation.
      Warm regards, Steve Cowing, NKT-IKBU Secretary on behalf of the GSD and Education Council Reps"

      Hopefully, this gives you some idea of the group behind these protests and why they are doing what they are doing, even if they are not totally honest about it themselves.

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  13. My last point was specifically about religious freedom. For centuries a wrathful protector has been praised and worshipped for killing people who chose to practice Tibetan Buddhism in a non-sectarian and ecumenical way. Propagating this view limited the religious freedom of people to choose for themselves what teachings they took. Removing a violent and sectarian practice from the mainstream of the Gelug tradition helps to bring more religious freedom.

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  14. Lots to research and think about, thanks for everybody's views.

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  15. A thoughtful and detailed response to Nicholas Pitts/Kelsang Rabten here: http://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2015/07/05/the-anti-dalai-lama-protests-separating-fact-from-fiction/

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  16. Tenzin Peljor, is it true thay you were employed by the Stasi ( East German secret police)?

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    1. I was not employed by the Stasi, I am not a Stasi trained spy, I am not employed by the CTA either. These are all false accusations by the ISC conspiracy theorists. I am a Buddhist monk who happened to get to know both sides very well.

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  17. Tenzin Peljor, I remember that demonstrations, by Tibetan monks in South India against the Dalai Lama's Dorje Shugden ban, took place before any NKT supporters participated in thr first London demonstrations in 1996. This fact is well supported by documentary and video evidence. What is. Your response to this proven fact.

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  18. I don't know exactly when protests happened in India. But indeed there were pro and contra Shugden protests. So of course, I don't deny that.

    However, as experts confirmed different times, there is no all pervasive ban as you and ISC want to make us believe.

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